Submachine 8: the Plan

Redafro
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Redafro »

I'm sure he will, or else there'd be too many plot-holes XD
@XD
About "The Temple entered - Beamer shutdown" - It's possible, but another DefSys, even if it's not one of the typical DefSys? It's like there's DefSys everywhere you go :P
Well, were talking analogy anyway, right? I mean, specifically, the Defense System is a computer system probably run by a local submachine, or the Core's submachine. Everything else is "like" a defsys only in the sense that it defends an area.
Even if they do mention that, it's still considered a possibility and can't be Debunked :P
I still find it annoying. :/
Why would the Karma Portal at the end of Sub7 be "dramatically long" if it's really not that far away? Besides it meaning it is far away, it could be said to add to the mysterious factor of the Series.
Well the layers are not far apart. Mateusz has made that clear I think. So I think that means the green portal is long because it is taking us to a specific point in layer 1 so that we can "shift," or whatever verb we want to use, to the right point in layer 5.
As for the first layer of the Knot being in the Core: To be honest, your Theory about the knot being a whole seperate entity off of the SubNet is starting to get to me
Ironically, I find myself less sure I'm right. :lol:
so there's two (of many) conclusions:

1) The Knot is The Plan, and something's happened (Mur) to The Plan that got it into this state.
Interesting... So, would that be something like a sector of the Plan was built to be a microcosm of the whole?
...But we talked before about how the subnet is probably not infinite because then the defsys would have to be infinitly long. However, the subnet still could be infinite if you count bubble dimensions within the subnet, like the Loop, or the infinite blue corridor.
You use bubble to mean a gap? Does gap even have meaning? If your outside of a dimension, I would think you are by definition beyond space/time, ie, your in a place that doesn't exist.
Ah, I see. And maybe "gap" is the wrong word in this case - It's like an actual bubble straddling both Dimensional Planes, in the actual edge seperating both Dimensions.
This kind of description kind of confuses me. To talk about edges and spaces between dimensions doesn't seem to make sense. A dimension or layer, it would seem to me, is a space made up of a set of dimensions that either loops back on itself, or somehow just ends. But it seems strange to say that if you could get past that end you would travel through a space that would eventually lead you to another dimension. If this were the case, they would all simply be a part of the same space and have causal influence on each other. I don't think theoretic physics would support this either, though I'm just a physics fanboy, not someone who knows much of anything. Instead, the idea is that each layer/dimension is isolated from all the others except when beamers are used to create a relationship between sectors of a dimension.
Edit: ha! Ironically, now that I've written the rest of this post and am rereading this, I realize that talking about some kind of "space" between bubbles is in some ways exactly what we are talking about when we say the bubbles are on the same Layer! But it isn't a physical space that one would traverse or else that would just be another part of the dimension. (If that didn't make sense, keep reading. XD) However, I think I need to clarify that when I say an End to a pocket/layer/bubble/etc, I mean that there can be no physical space beyond that end. There is literally nothing there, not a space you could move through or anything. So it is not exactly correct to say there is anything past an end to a bubble, even though it is located in the same layer as other bubbles and perhaps is even imbedded in normal space (see below).
Now that I think on it, it may not be the best explanation, but "pocket dimensions" - Now those may be a better term, so we do have the same idea, I probably misrepresented it XD
I think either could probably be used to describe different phenomenons. A pocket dimension would be the black hole analogy, where an area of local space (part of the "parent" layer if you will) bends "inward" and creates an entire other space but which is still on the same layer. Now, I would claim that a bubble dimension is just another layer if it were not for the limitation of 7 layers. So this means that a bubble dimension works just like a pocket dimension in that it is formed from its parent layer. Strangely, however, there is no entrance, except perhaps teleporters. I don't know how it could then still be said to be a part of the parent layer, other than perhaps if you were to somehow make a map of the layer, the bubbles would still be on the layer, just not in the normal space.

Hmmm... oh wow, so imagine that there is a bubble of infinite space right in front of you. You can walk through the point of normal space that it "occupies" but your local space just bends around it in a way you can't even sense. If you could sense space/time directly, you could sense the point in which the infinite bubble is located, but without the right tools (teleporters, beames, or perhaps some other device that can convert a bubble into a pocket) you couldn't enter.

A third point is that a pocket is still not quite the right term for some phenomenons, because it seems that other parts of the pocket could bend out and attach to other areas of normal space creating worm hole like passages. So, there it is = worm holes are pockets that connect two or more locations. This in fact could be how all teleports work: a very small pocket dimension (small because we are unaware of even being in it) is connected between locations and we either walk through (like the gate in Sub7) or the entrance to the pocket is moved over the space the user of the teleport is occupying.

And just to clarify, this is not how the beamers work because the beamer "opens" or connects a sector of two layers, and the Navigator allows the wearer to shift directly between the layers where an intersection is created by the beamers.

Edit2: and just to further clarify, the subnet is a pocket, bubble, or worm hole within normal layer 1 space, and there are probably many bubbles within that bubble, and could conceivably be an infinite number of them. :shock:
no. all subnet is one dimention, not 999 dimentions.
there are 7 dimentions and I'd suppose - there are 7 versions of the same subnet. or not. maybe in one reality they didnt create subnet, and just core remains. there could be a dimention where the core is not damaged. who knows.
Interesting quote. Is he being deliberately obtuse about it, or will it just not make a difference to the story of the game?
I see...."All SubNet is one Dimension" - Could he then be referring to how all SubNet is one Layer? Because he brought up 999 in the sense that each Location is a Dimension, which it's not. So there can be 999 Layers,
Yeah, our subnet is in, as you say, layer 1, along with our universe and perhaps any number of pockets, worm holes and bubbles. But there are only, for some reason, 7 layers. Perhaps game mechanics. :twisted: Each location is some form of bubble, pocket, or worm hole within the larger bubble that is the subnet.
each containing its own version of the SubNet. That's what I believe he's referring to - Each Layer has its own version of reality, its own version of the SubNet, which is why all the Layers are different.
Well, just to be clear because there are theories that say this, it does not appear to be 7 layers with alternate versions of perhaps some original reality. In other words, this is not a Sliders scenario, if your familiar with that tv show. Instead, the Architects have made similar meta structures (the core, the knot, etc) on each layer, but each is a unique location, not an alternate. To clarify, I don't think each layer has a slightly different Earth, Universe, etc, though each layer will have a Core because that is the purpose of the Plan: to unite the layers at the Core sectors. But I don't expect we'll find alternate versions of people or locations, just different people and locations. Although, the Core might be the exception, and perhaps when we get to the Temple we'll see what the Winter Palace was suppose to be like before it was imperfectly copied and damaged. :shock: But certainly the layers of the Knot were not alternate versions of the same reality, they were unique realities. This could also be why Mateusz has said there is only one Mur and Liz, not 7.

Edit: Pheeeew! Did that make any sense? I feel it should be rewritten for clarity sake, but there is no way I will be doing that anytime soon. XD
Rooster5man
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Rooster5man »

Well, were talking analogy anyway, right? I mean, specifically, the Defense System is a computer system probably run by a local submachine, or the Core's submachine. Everything else is "like" a defsys only in the sense that it defends an area.
Exactly right. Nonetheless, it seems like someone's very pre-cautionate if there's these "traps" everywhere, yet they didn't think of the possibility of someone letting Mur back into The Core...? It's strange is all.
I still find it annoying. :/
You're telling me.
Well the layers are not far apart. Mateusz has made that clear I think. So I think that means the green portal is long because it is taking us to a specific point in layer 1 so that we can "shift," or whatever verb we want to use, to the right point in layer 5.
Huh, interesting....You're referring to how you can end up in different parts of different Layers (i.e. The Dock being the top of the "temple" of Layer 2)? But the Portal was supposed to bring us to Layer 5 before the Knot intervened...So could it be said the Portal was long because the knot redirected the Portal? Now we're getting to a reasonable explanation...
Ironically, I find myself less sure I'm right
LOL, I'm gullible at times, I guess.
Interesting... So, would that be something like a sector of the Plan was built to be a microcosm of the whole?
Possibly. My thought was that Mur's Karma powers reinverted the Plan to get all "twisted up" into the Knot.
This in fact could be how all teleports work: a very small pocket dimension (small because we are unaware of even being in it) is connected between locations and we either walk through (like the gate in Sub7) or the entrance to the pocket is moved over the space the user of the teleport is occupying.
Reminscient yet again of -ak-'s Dimensional Pathway Theory! I like it!

The rest confused me beyond belief XD But I'm sure I have the right idea in mind, even if I can't get past all the technical terms XD
Yeah, our subnet is in, as you say, layer 1, along with our universe and perhaps any number of pockets, worm holes and bubbles. But there are only, for some reason, 7 layers. Perhaps game mechanics. Each location is some form of bubble, pocket, or worm hole within the larger bubble that is the subnet.
And my mind is blown! Yes, it could possibly mean that each Layer contains the bubble/pocket dimensions, even if Mateusz tried to steer us away from that conclusion...
To clarify, I don't think each layer has a slightly different Earth, Universe, etc, though each layer will have a Core because that is the purpose of the Plan: to unite the layers at the Core sectors. But I don't expect we'll find alternate versions of people or locations, just different people and locations. Although, the Core might be the exception, and perhaps when we get to the Temple we'll see what the Winter Palace was suppose to be like before it was imperfectly copied and damaged. But certainly the layers of the Knot were not alternate versions of the same reality, they were unique realities. This could also be why Mateusz has said there is only one Mur and Liz, not 7.
I believe I was reaching the same conclusion, maybe I misused a word or two - What exactly do you mean, then, by "unique realities," if not "alternate versions of the same reality?" Because, really, that's what I gathered pocket dimensions to be - Each Layer is its own version of reality (possibly the definition of "Unique Reality") is what I was going for, each Layer can't have the same reality in different directions (like Dimensions broken off of the original SubNet), these are alternate Dimensions, not Universes.

Let me give you background: The way I looked at it is that the SubNet is a Universe of its own, outside of our known Universe. Off of this Universe are different Dimensions, being the Layers. Unless I'm mistaken, Dimensions and Universes aren't synomonous.

I think this subject is too confusing for it to be clarified XD
Redafro
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Redafro »

Exactly right. Nonetheless, it seems like someone's very pre-cautionate if there's these "traps" everywhere, yet they didn't think of the possibility of someone letting Mur back into The Core...? It's strange is all.
I'm not following that. The DefSys was there to keep Mur out, and the Knot was to slow him down, perhaps they even hoped to keep him out with it, as unlikely as that seems. I don't want to cry game mechanics again, and I wouldn't have to if my mind-reading sub machine theory were confirmed ;D, but that seems to be the case: there has to be puzzles, but the story also has to keep going. So the Knot was trying to keep him out, but didn't.
Huh, interesting....You're referring to how you can end up in different parts of different Layers (i.e. The Dock being the top of the "temple" of Layer 2)? But the Portal was supposed to bring us to Layer 5 before the Knot intervened...So could it be said the Portal was long because the knot redirected the Portal? Now we're getting to a reasonable explanation...
This is the quote I was talking about.
one thing bugs me. you all think that layer 5 will be "far away"
like you could measure distance between two layers of reality. I think the distance is not the point here.
Now he is responding to the distance between dots on the submachineworld.com page, but I think the statement stands. As for it being longer because of the redirection, perhaps, but my point was that it is long because the position Mur was trying to get to on layer 5 overlapped a point far from the Winter Palace thus necessitating a very long portal. I donno... I just don't want to say it is long for dramatic effect. Too much of a cop out.
LOL, I'm gullible at times, I guess.
Gullible for believing my theory? :evil: jk. I just mean I'm not totally convinced by my own theory.
Possibly. My thought was that Mur's Karma powers reinverted the Plan to get all "twisted up" into the Knot.
Hmmm... so he made the Knot to keep us off his tail? I'm not sure I believe that. For one, the notes in the Knot seem to be at least partially from the Architects. Well, at least that is my impression. I have no hard evidence for that.
Reminscient yet again of -ak-'s Dimensional Pathway Theory! I like it!

The rest confused me beyond belief XD But I'm sure I have the right idea in mind, even if I can't get past all the technical terms XD
Ok, let me just try this one more time. Let us assume (since this is all assumptions anyway XD ) that the universe we know is the base line of Layer 1. That is, the universe is not a dimension within the parent dimension that is layer 1, but they are both the same: layer 1 = our universe. Now picture that 3D space as a sheet of rubber. If you put a cup against it and sucked the air out of the cup, you would create a pocket. That is our definition of the pocket universe, a place where normal space is stretched out into a fourth direction. What the opening into that pocket looks like is unknown of course.

Now, this stretching of space into a 4th dimension makes little sense to our 3D mind, since it would be a 3d space bending into a 4th dimension, but we don't need to visualize it to get the gist of the idea. If the rubbery substance was stretchy enough, or if you could modify it the right way (and that is probably more of what is happening, ala physics tweaking) you could stretch it into an infinite corridor, like the ones in the subnet.

If you where to then twist that region into a ball, you would have a bubble: a region of space that is inescapable but is a part of the parent layer/dimension.

If you were to somehow make two pockets and connect the two (or more) you would have a worm hole (or perhaps we could call it a bottle, I dunno. It's just a term). You could even just bend the rubber sheet in half and connect two points together to make a teleport worm hole. That is what the sci fi term "fold space" has always implied.

Again, I can't conceive of what that would actually look like, but I can "see" the gist of it with these analogies.
And my mind is blown! Yes, it could possibly mean that each Layer contains the bubble/pocket dimensions, even if Mateusz tried to steer us away from that conclusion...
Say what? The only quote I can think of that you might be referring to is this:
1. no. reality is made of 7 different layers. subnet is a part of that reality.
2. no. layer = dimension
3. no. layer has all locations.
4. no. there are 7 layers.
5. no. certain location is not a layer.

so lets smmarize: you got it all wrong.
So, ok, I'm probably confusing you by using the term "dimension." Ok, actually I get where your coming from now. The notes we have found often talk about dimensions, like:
Using his technology we were able to built our own portals to move between dimensions
Yet Mateusz has said:
I'm pretty sure they meant "dimension" differently. to them it was jumping between different clusters of submachines in one dimension.
methinks.
So, let me suggest this: when the term dimensions is used, it doesn't mean a Layer unless it clearly means layer. Instead, it is refering to either locations within the subnet (which itself is a large bubble/pocket within our universe) or to bubble/pockets within the subnet, like the loop, or corridor locations. (Really need a term that means any kind of bubble/pocket/worm hole... dimension? Or is that too confusing?)
What exactly do you mean, then, by "unique realities," if not "alternate versions of the same reality?"
I'm trying as hard as I can to describe the difference between a sliders like scenario, where there is a different version of you, your mom, your dog, your house, everything, in each layer, and one where each layer is unique. Capice? "Unique reality" was just an attempt to differentiate from the Slideresque "sightly different copy reality"
Because, really, that's what I gathered pocket dimensions to be - Each Layer is its own version of reality (possibly the definition of "Unique Reality") is what I was going for, each Layer can't have the same reality in different directions (like Dimensions broken off of the original SubNet), these are alternate Dimensions, not Universes.
Alternate is a really tricky word. It seems to imply the Slideresque to me. So yeah, you lost ME now. XD It seems like you use the terms differently than me, or else you have a very different model. I say each layer is a "unique" reality, and the Submachine Cores are located in pocket dimensions (pocket universe perhaps?) within the larger parent universe/layer.
Let me give you background: The way I looked at it is that the SubNet is a Universe of its own, outside of our known Universe. Off of this Universe are different Dimensions, being the Layers. Unless I'm mistaken, Dimensions and Universes aren't synomonous.
Uhm... OOOOOH! Oh crap. Yeah, you definitely have a different model than I do. No, I don't think that is how Mateusz has been using the terms, though I could be wrong. He seems to give the highest emphases to the layers. And there are of course the seeming alternate history of the 4th Dynasty/King/etc. These don't seem to me to be from OUR universe, so it must be a history of another universe. Thus I think that there are 7 layers, 7 realities, which are connected to nothing beyond themselves. They are what everything that exists is found in. Within the 7 layers are 7 universes and within the 7 universes are 7 Submachine Cores, some with subnets, and possibly some without.

In contrast, you seem to be saying that there is 1 universe, the one we are in, and within that is the 7 layers containing the 7 cores? That seems to almost reverse the way I see it... and it doesn't seem to deal with the other earth history.
I think this subject is too confusing for it to be clarified XD
And yet I must try!!!!!

Note: just finished random edits. 12/16/2012 @ 3pm -6 utc
Rooster5man
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Rooster5man »

I'm not following that. The DefSys was there to keep Mur out, and the Knot was to slow him down, perhaps they even hoped to keep him out with it, as unlikely as that seems. I don't want to cry game mechanics again, and I wouldn't have to if my mind-reading sub machine theory were confirmed ;D, but that seems to be the case: there has to be puzzles, but the story also has to keep going. So the Knot was trying to keep him out, but didn't.
I'll agree to that, it's pointless arguing about puzzles when that's what the Series is about :P
Now he is responding to the distance between dots on the submachineworld.com page, but I think the statement stands. As for it being longer because of the redirection, perhaps, but my point was that it is long because the position Mur was trying to get to on layer 5 overlapped a point far from the Winter Palace thus necessitating a very long portal. I donno... I just don't want to say it is long for dramatic effect. Too much of a cop out.
Then we'll leave alone until we have more information because we can't think of another answer :P
I just mean I'm not totally convinced by my own theory.
Oh, I know, but I was saying more along the lines that I believe it because it's very believable.
Hmmm... so he made the Knot to keep us off his tail? I'm not sure I believe that. For one, the notes in the Knot seem to be at least partially from the Architects. Well, at least that is my impression. I have no hard evidence for that.
I wasn't saying that. I was saying that one of the side-effects of using his Karma powers, like destroying the Plan, is possibly mangling the Plan into "the Knot."

If you where to then twist that region into a ball, you would have a bubble: a region of space that is inescapable but is a part of the parent layer/dimension.

If you were to somehow make two pockets and connect the two (or more) you would have a worm hole (or perhaps we could call it a bottle, I dunno. It's just a term). You could even just bend the rubber sheet in half and connect two points together to make a teleport worm hole. That is what the sci fi term "fold space" has always implied.
Ah, I see now! I can't comment on that, but at least I understand now XD
Using his technology we were able to built our own portals to move between dimensions.
On a sidenote, is this what you were referring to when you Theorized Mur helped build the Knot? Because I see now XD
So, let me suggest this: when the term dimensions is used, it doesn't mean a Layer unless it clearly means layer. Instead, it is refering to either locations within the subnet (which itself is a large bubble/pocket within our universe) or to bubble/pockets within the subnet, like the loop, or corridor locations. (Really need a term that means any kind of bubble/pocket/worm hole... dimension? Or is that too confusing?)
But...
layer = dimension
If they're synomonous, then why would they use the word "Dimension" for everything?

I do like the thought, as I said, that:
Each location is some form of bubble, pocket, or worm hole within the larger bubble that is the subnet.
But when "Dimension=Layer," where does that fit in? :/
I'm trying as hard as I can to describe the difference between a sliders like scenario, where there is a different version of you, your mom, your dog, your house, everything, in each layer, and one where each layer is unique. Capice? "Unique reality" was just an attempt to differentiate from the Slideresque "sightly different copy reality"
Oh, I have that exact view! I see now! I didn't realize to call it a "Unique reality," but I see where that name's coming from XD Right, because there's only one Mur and Liz, so each Layer isn't an alternate of the first, that's exactly right.
Alternate is a really tricky word. It seems to imply the Slideresque to me. So yeah, you lost ME now. XD It seems like you use the terms differently than me, or else you have a very different model. I say each layer is a "unique" reality, and the Submachine Cores are located in pocket dimensions (pocket universe perhaps?) within the larger parent universe/layer.


And I would say we're trying to say the exact same thing...XD
And there are of course the seeming alternate history of the 4th Dynasty/King/etc. These don't seem to me to be from OUR universe, so it must be a history of another universe. Thus I think that there are 7 layers, 7 realities, which are connected to nothing beyond themselves. They are what everything that exists is found in. Within the 7 layers are 7 universes and within the 7 universes are 7 Submachine Cores, some with subnets, and possibly some without.
Isn't that what I was saying? O_o If not, then ignore what I said and pretend I agree with you because that's what I tried to get across...XD
In contrast, you seem to be saying that there is 1 universe, the one we are in, and within that is the 7 layers containing the 7 cores? That seems to almost reverse the way I see it... and it doesn't seem to deal with the other earth history
.

Well, isn't that what you're saying? You just said:
within the 7 universes are 7 Submachine Cores, some with subnets, and possibly some without.
And that's saying the exact same thing as:
within that is the 7 layers containing the 7 cores
Or it's because I'm confusing Universes and Dimensions again...Well, we pretty much share the same view, so what the hell XD
And yet I must try!!!!!
We all must...although it's very difficult XD
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Redafro »

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that one of the side-effects of using his Karma powers, like destroying the Plan, is possibly mangling the Plan into "the Knot."
Hmmm... interesting... Except the Knot is said to have Architects who are basically cooler than god because of their mad layering skills:
Ah, I see now! I can't comment on that, but at least I understand now XD
:D
On a sidenote, is this what you were referring to when you Theorized Mur helped build the Knot? Because I see now XD
This one is all I'm actually talking about:
Liz: You can create dimensional portals while being inside such a portal?

Murtaugh: Yes, I can.

Liz: And when you do, what happens then?

Murtaugh: ...you change direction.

Liz: Direction of what?

Murtaugh: Of everything.

The other quote was to the Lab teams in Sub4, not to the layer 5 guys. And of course, the quote doesn't say Mur helped build the Knot, but its inclusion right before Sub8 seems to imply he had something to do with the Knot.
But when "Dimension=Layer," where does that fit in? :/
Well, the point is that we've been seeing the word "dimension" since what, Sub1 or 2? Yet it has not been until Sub8 that it was revealed that there are only 7 dimensions which are Layers. So, that is 7 games in the main arc plus some Mateusz quotes up until Sub8 quotes that all act as if the locations are dimensions. We know, however, that they were not using the term dimension to mean layer. So, to clarify, I'm proposing that unless it obviously means layer, that the word dimension means location or bubble. Agreeing to that proposal just seems to reduce confusion.
Oh, I have that exact view!
Ok, cool.
Well, isn't that what you're saying?
Look at the two carefully, they are very different ideas. Here, I'll say it again:

View 1: 7 layers are the foundation for reality; nothing exists outside the 7 layers. Within each layer is a universe, and within each layer is a core, and some of those cores have developed subnets.

View 2: The Universe is the foundation for reality; nothing exists outside the universe. Within the universe are 7 layers, and within each layer is a core, and some of those cores have developed subnets.

See the difference now? I think view 1 is what Mateusz is saying because he has said:
1. no. reality is made of 7 different layers. subnet is a part of that reality.
I thought you had a different view because of the way you phrased this statement:
Let me give you background: The way I looked at it is that the SubNet is a Universe of its own, outside of our known Universe. Off of this Universe are different Dimensions, being the Layers. Unless I'm mistaken, Dimensions and Universes aren't synomonous.
So, I agree that dimensions and universes aren't synonymous, but as I said, layers and dimensions are not ALWAYS synonymous. It is a recent discovery that layers exist and that they = dimensions, but the Lab people obviously didn't know about layers, and "use the term dimensions differently." But back to your statement, I think I was thrown off when you said that the subnet is a universe of its own. That implied to me that it was not a part of any layer/dimension. Even though you said that dimensions and universes are not synonymous, and I agreed with you, I still got confused. :? :oops:

AND DUUUUUUDE! I know why I was so confused about what layer our subnet is on!
- This dimension? You mean the third one? You know that's not even the original dimension, right? What do you think is more important - the origin or the flawed copy?
So like, it sure looks like we came from layer 1 because that is where we landed and where Liz's ship pod is docked (if it is hers), yet they say his Kamra portals are destroying layer 3! So it almost has to be that our subnet is in layer 3 and we just got into the Knot on layer 1. XD

Edit: of course the raw deal is that if it is Liz's ship, than the knot puzzle is dependent on her ship. D: Unless my mind-reading theory and physics engine theories are correct, then the local submachine just integrated the ship into the puzzle. Yet another reason I like those theories, they explain SOOOOO much of the game mechanic issues. XD
Rooster5man
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Rooster5man »

Hmmm... interesting... Except the Knot is said to have Architects who are basically cooler than god because of their mad layering skills:
True...But, like you've thought, I do believe Mur has something to do with the Knot, although we don't know how true that may be :P
The other quote was to the Lab teams in Sub4, not to the layer 5 guys. And of course, the quote doesn't say Mur helped build the Knot, but its inclusion right before Sub8 seems to imply he had something to do with the Knot.
Well, the quote from Sub4 talked about Dimensions, it can lead to nearly the same conclusion. However, I see, the Mur and Liz Note. It's very possible.
Agreeing to that proposal just seems to reduce confusion.
Exactly why I have confusion to begin with because we're unsure on the specifics of the original use of the term "Dimension" :P
Look at the two carefully, they are very different ideas. Here, I'll say it again:

View 1: 7 layers are the foundation for reality; nothing exists outside the 7 layers. Within each layer is a universe, and within each layer is a core, and some of those cores have developed subnets.

View 2: The Universe is the foundation for reality; nothing exists outside the universe. Within the universe are 7 layers, and within each layer is a core, and some of those cores have developed subnets.

See the difference now?
Oh, I see! I probably misread yesterday then...Bound to happen when we're talking too much about Physics XD
no. reality is made of 7 different layers. subnet is a part of that reality.
Oh, okay...That's right, meaning all of reality, not just a Universe, consists of the seven Layers. And being that "Subnet is part of that reality," then does the SubNet really only exist in one Layer, that being Layer One? Hmm...
So, I agree that dimensions and universes aren't synonymous, but as I said, layers and dimensions are not ALWAYS synonymous. It is a recent discovery that layers exist and that they = dimensions, but the Lab people obviously didn't know about layers, and "use the term dimensions differently."
Ah ha! Very possible, but we're not sure whether or not the Scientists ("lab people") knew of the Layers, so it could be said that the note from Sub4 refers to how Mur helped build the Navigator. Possibly.
But back to your statement, I think I was thrown off when you said that the subnet is a universe of its own. That implied to me that it was not a part of any layer/dimension. Even though you said that dimensions and universes are not synonymous, and I agreed with you, I still got confused.
Don't sweat it, I've been just as confused XD I see what happened now, we confused each other :P Or mostly me confusing you XD
So like, it sure looks like we came from layer 1 because that is where we landed and where Liz's ship pod is docked (if it is hers), yet they say his Kamra portals are destroying layer 3! So it almost has to be that our subnet is in layer 3 and we just got into the Knot on layer 1. XD
But then what's so important about Layer 5? O_o That the Temple exists on its own (not part of the SubNet) on Layer 5, the SubNet's on Layer 3 and Layer 1's just...Layer 1? XD
Edit: of course the raw deal is that if it is Liz's ship, than the knot puzzle is dependent on her ship. D: Unless my mind-reading theory and physics engine theories are correct, then the local submachine just integrated the ship into the puzzle. Yet another reason I like those theories, they explain SOOOOO much of the game mechanic issues. XD
Ha! Very possible, or maybe (Game Mechanics) getting into Liz's ship was the only way we could move forward :P How would (according to your Theory) the Submachine know to "integrate the ship into the Puzzle" when the ship (assumingly) just got there? It knew what was inside the ship for it to be part of the puzzle? Still seems a bit Dues Ex Machina :/
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Sublevel 113
layer restorer
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Sublevel 113 »

omg, this is Redarfo-Rooster endless discussion thread... 0_0

Edit: Oops, I broke your discussion sequence, sorry...
Edit 2: *Yeah! I did it. I broke their conversation! Trolololo...*
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Vortex
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Vortex »

Sublevel 102 wrote:omg, this is Redarfo-Rooster endless discussion thread... 0_0
^this XD
Rooster5man
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Rooster5man »

Guys, I get the point, Mateusz is probably mad XD At least we're talking about Sub8 :P You're making me feel bad >.>
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Vortex
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Re: Submachine 8: the Plan

Post by Vortex »

Nah, don't feel bad... I would say you both are who keep the Submachine discussion alive, and after that that's what this forum is mainly about :D
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