So...

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Sublevel 113
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Re: So...

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never heard

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Anteroinen
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Re: So...

Post by Anteroinen »

Gemini wrote:I don't know about myself losing interest in Submachine, but it has started to show its age, I can sit there and talk about some of things in Submachine I don't like which has made me lose taste for it, which I say is different than interest. I'm always interested in Submachine, but there have been a few times where its left a sour taste in my mouth.

I think what a lot of people want is something different, something new. They want a new game series that follows along the theme Submachine does. The whole mysterious vibe, point and click, escape this area to get to to the next.
I have the same thing a bit. The series has been going in an interesting direction, but odd in many ways and different from what originally drew me into it. Like the whole Shiva thing? That sort of came from left field, suddenly Submachine is governed by a Hindu god instead of being this magnificent callous machine that went haywire?

Another thing that seems kind of odd is how we've been going back and forth with Murtaugh being good and then evil and then suddenly he is the messiah. He has gotten an absolute redemption, story wise. Yet, everything points towards him being a pompous ass. I mean, look at the stuff he says.
I can't tell them the truth, it would be like explaining the possibility of space travel to a goldfish.
You know there are seven answers to that question, my dear Liz.
Sorry, got a bit sidetracked there...
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Re: So...

Post by WorldisQuiet5256 »

Anteroinen wrote: Another thing that seems kind of odd is how we've been going back and forth with Murtaugh being good and then evil and then suddenly he is the messiah. He has gotten an absolute redemption, story wise. Yet, everything points towards him being a pompous ass. I mean, look at the stuff he says.
I can't tell them the truth, it would be like explaining the possibility of space travel to a goldfish.
Young Murtuagh, he doesn't know better.
You know there are seven answers to that question, my dear Liz.
Transcript 18/36.
We don't know the whole conversation.
Or when it was taken, or in fact if it even existed long until after the End of Submachine 10.

The way I see it, we're all looking at it the wrong way.
Don't view the story as the enclose space that we are observing. We may not "See" ourselves in the Mirror in Sub 5, but at the same time we blindly believe from Submachine "Mass Gossip" that the commoners thought as well.

Myself included. Murtaugh himself did send those people to the Defense to never come back. But at the same time, he probably couldn't get within a 1/1000th of a mile near the Defense System without setting it off.

Second, those bullet holes in Submachine 7, I think they were shot from the barrels from the people who lived in the Core. All they had to go on was the the general idea Murtuagh was bad, but he wasn't. And they had no way of asking him, the Others would probably stop them or even worse kill them.

My point being is this, first off "We".
now we can travel freely throughout the net. We can finally invade the core of the submachine.
Simple, "We" means "Me's". Multiple Murtuaghs.

My final point is this, as we waited for each release of the next part of the Submachine series, all we had to work off of was the notes and facts we had at the time. WE, as in both the people of the Submachine World and The people who made the theories on the Pastel Forum are no different from one another.

Granted, the Pastel Forum Members are real living people who exist while the people in the Story to be told in the Submachine are just that, a work of fiction. But we should not forget the fact remains, at the end of Sub 6, we were pissed off at Murtuaght Betrayal. At the end of Submachine 9, we knew the whole facts.
But Between the release of Sub 7, 8, and 9, we had only ourselves and I left to our thoughts and perspective on the matter of what we believe to the truth at the time with the information we only had access to at the time.

True, Murtuagh at the End of Sub 8 was after Elizabeth, we were right behind him. Or so we thought, and as results believe what we saw and believe what we either were lead to believe or what we wanted to believe.

Then Submachine 9 comes out and Murtuagh is now a good guy and hailed as a "Messiah" as you call him.
But...when Submachine 4 came out, we thought Murtuagh was a decent enough Person now...

...Didn't we?
WHERE DO WE COME FROM
WHAT ARE WE
WHERE ARE WE
GOING
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Re: So...

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Anteroinen wrote: I have the same thing a bit. The series has been going in an interesting direction, but odd in many ways and different from what originally drew me into it. Like the whole Shiva thing? That sort of came from left field, suddenly Submachine is governed by a Hindu god instead of being this magnificent callous machine that went haywire?
That puzzled me quite a bit, too, when I first played Sub9. I was disappointed by the storyline after the first playthrough and needed 2 days with a lot of replays to understand how the whole "Shiva thing" is connected to the "machine thing" and what Mateusz could aim for.
I accepted it now and will still love Submachine if it actually ends with Shiva reigning over this weird world, but actually believe that Sub9 is the prelude to a giant Plot twist in Sub10.
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Re: So...

Post by The Kakama »

I think if there is a subgod, most probably it isn't Shiva but someone that resembles him that people think it is Shiva and built statues of him, but isn't.
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Re: So...

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Only way a plot twist would work in the last installment of this series if he has another series lined up that will succeed Submachine and pick up where 10 left off at.

But Sub8 was kind of where things got sketchy for me. Because in Sub6 Murtaugh betrays us, Sub7 we see his invasion of the Core, we learn about his abilities and his discussions with Elizabeth, then suddenly in Sub8 we are thrown in a different direction. That 742 years note, which where did that come from? Did we travel 742 years into the future? And why wasn't the note addressed in Sub9?

It was just that, the plot cohesion in Sub8 felt whack. We find these notes and what about the plot do they have anything to do with? Are they even discussions between Elizabeth and Murtaugh, or other explorers?

It reminded me of the lack of plot in Sub5, which was a good game, but again, there was very little plot to it. Supposedly for this first man made Submachine, we hardly learned anything about it. You would think there would have been notes left behind by scientists who worked on the project. But nope...

But yeah the Shiva thing "He didn't get his powers, they were given to him by Shiva" Why? For what purpose? Hopefully that is answered in Sub10.
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Re: So...

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Gemini wrote:It reminded me of the lack of plot in Sub5, which was a good game, but again, there was very little plot to it. Supposedly for this first man made Submachine, we hardly learned anything about it. You would think there would have been notes left behind by scientists who worked on the project. But nope...
THIS

you know. It was said it's first Submachine, where it all started... in game description only.
This time we go back to the very first submachine ever built – historically speaking. It was created by an unknown scientist in the early 20th century. This is the place where it all started.
we enter the game, and... ONE small note about Observation room and 1950's, and NOTHING MORE.

That killed me.
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Re: So...

Post by Anteroinen »

WorldisQuiet5256 wrote:Murtaugh himself did send those people to the Defense to never come back. But at the same time, he probably couldn't get within a 1/1000th of a mile near the Defense System without setting it off.

Second, those bullet holes in Submachine 7, I think they were shot from the barrels from the people who lived in the Core. All they had to go on was the the general idea Murtuagh was bad, but he wasn't. And they had no way of asking him, the Others would probably stop them or even worse kill them.
You know, just because he supposedly feels sorry for it, does not mean that he isn't in the wrong here. He killed people. That should be remembered: He killed people. Many deliberately.

Which makes is all the more weird he is so respected...
WorldisQuiet5256 wrote: But we should not forget the fact remains, at the end of Sub 6, we were pissed off at Murtuaght Betrayal. At the end of Submachine 9, we knew the whole facts.
We know the facts? Somehow I doubt this, actually. What we "know" is stuff told to us by apologetics of a Murtaugh worshiping cult, that also believe in Shiva and have a minority view on how layer 8 works, apparently. It seems to me we are on the precipice of a revelation about the society right now.
WorldisQuiet5256 wrote:Then Submachine 9 comes out and Murtuagh is now a good guy and hailed as a "Messiah" as you call him.
But...when Submachine 4 came out, we thought Murtaugh was a decent enough Person now...

...Didn't we?
He was more on the evil side, though. Until Submachine 3 Murtaugh was presented relatively neutrally, in the chaotic neutral sort of way. In Submachine 4 we began to see hints of his more scarier sides when he abandons people. This escalated in Sub6-Sub7, and then *snaps fingers* Murtaugh is the good guy, who just regrets everything he did. I'm fine with Murtaugh being redeemed, I just find it difficult to believe that is the whole story.
Gemini wrote:It was just that, the plot cohesion in Sub8 felt whack. We find these notes and what about the plot do they have anything to do with? Are they even discussions between Elizabeth and Murtaugh, or other explorers?
The stuff they talked about sounded as if it was the first explorers finding out about the plan. It was kind of weird and disconnected from the Liz and Mur thing for the most part, though interesting.
Gemini wrote:It reminded me of the lack of plot in Sub5, which was a good game, but again, there was very little plot to it. Supposedly for this first man made Submachine, we hardly learned anything about it. You would think there would have been notes left behind by scientists who worked on the project. But nope...
Yeah, that was disappointing. I mean, it was already out when I came along and it has excellent story telling built into the setting itself, with the connection to the lighthouse and the cipherplate lockers and ability to compare older models of stuff with newer ones we've seen. But that is about it for the Root, nothing really revealed. I sort of feel as though Mateusz was too hasty here. He wanted to show the Root, but couldn't tell the story because it would've revealed the beginnings of the Submachine – stuff we hear the first really good bits of info about in Sub7 and Sub9, and even that is minimal and cliffhangery. Like, honestly, now would've been the perfect time to go to the Root. Finding out how it all started.
Gemini wrote:But yeah the Shiva thing "He didn't get his powers, they were given to him by Shiva" Why? For what purpose? Hopefully that is answered in Sub10.
My hunch is that we'll find out Shiva is the computer and people worship it. That or Murtaugh's worshipers are just full of crap, which would be kind of annoying, since just like Sub8 negated the plot elements of Sub7 that would negate the plot elements of Sub9 kind of in their entirety. (What I mean is that we just have to assume half of the notes are wrong and that kind of sucks, because it limits what we can say we know).
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Re: So...

Post by Anonymous2 »

My hunch is that we'll find out Shiva is the computer and people worship it
Lol taken right out of the Twilight Zone. The episode is The Old Man in the Cave for those interested in watching it.

I had posted in one of the other threads a while back about my own theory on the whole "cult of murtaugh" stuff. I think it was in the Submachine Universe thread, but I basically said that the things we see in Sub9 might be romanticized. Things that happened were really dire and grim, and over time, the stories of Murtaugh and Elizabeth just changed, tidbits were taken off and added onto.
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Re: So...

Post by Anteroinen »

Gemini wrote:
My hunch is that we'll find out Shiva is the computer and people worship it
Lol taken right out of the Twilight Zone. The episode is The Old Man in the Cave for those interested in watching it.

I had posted in one of the other threads a while back about my own theory on the whole "cult of murtaugh" stuff. I think it was in the Submachine Universe thread, but I basically said that the things we see in Sub9 might be romanticized. Things that happened were really dire and grim, and over time, the stories of Murtaugh and Elizabeth just changed, tidbits were taken off and added onto.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was true. It has probably been a very long time since Mur and Liz died, after all.
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