rant board

[Anteroinen]

Honestly, my opinion still is that there are only seven layers. I don't actually think the so called eighth layer is aptly named, for it is apparently entirely different from all the others by function and properties. World is right about what Mateusz said though. He was pretty darn explicit several times, there are seven layers (which is why I think the way I do about the eighth layer – I mean the game clearly states that the way it describes the "layer" is NOT how it is usually understood by most others).

And then boom, the "layer of time", whatever it is appears.

Mateusz said (18/12/2010, post3), for instance:

no. all subnet is one dimention, not 999 dimentions.
there are 7 dimentions and I'd suppose - there are 7 versions of the same subnet. or not. maybe in one reality they didnt create subnet, and just core remains. there could be a dimention where the core is not damaged. who knows.

And everybody criticized WiQ for his theory because it hinged entirely on the fact there was a place for an eighth button. Entirely. Whereas the creator of the game said he was wrong. It isn't some miracle that we didn't exactly believe him. Mateusz has a habit of being obtuse, but I really don't think he lies.

EDIT: Also, no, WiQ you do not get to write on the Wiki about how that is what happened if that is not evidenced by the room itself. At most you get to add a trivia note about what context the author of the story gives his story, because that would probably be interesting, but that is about it. The Subnet room is not in any way yours, the only power you possess over it is the creative license to ask Mateusz to purge your story off it.

None of your achievements change this. And you won't win any of us over by saying things like our theories aren't creative efforts. As if your story is the first story in the subnet – which it isn't – and as if that would make our theories less meaningful – which it doesn't.

One thing you are a bit right about, is that sometimes we eat off Mateusz's hand a bit too much. Like, he can tell us to stop making memes about himself and suddenly it is a cardinal sin and I remember how one member insisted that we can't put a picture of Mateusz from a newspaper onto the Wiki without his permission. And I am just sitting here like... guys, please. In most places of the internet, people literally would not care for shit. It is nice that we do, but sometimes we go overboard.

[WorldisQuiet5256]

And then boom, the "layer of time", whatever it is appears.

Mateusz said (18/12/2010, post3), for instance:

no. all subnet is one dimention, not 999 dimentions.
there are 7 dimentions and I'd suppose - there are 7 versions of the same subnet. or not. maybe in one reality they didnt create subnet, and just core remains. there could be a dimention where the core is not damaged. who knows.

And everybody criticized WiQ for his theory because it hinged entirely on the fact there was a place for an eighth button. Entirely. Whereas the creator of the game said he was wrong. It isn't some miracle that we didn't exactly believe him. Mateusz has a habit of being obtuse, but I really don't think he lies.

Thank you Anterior, for now, I'm taking my weekend break. I'll get back to the Wiki later.
Also, the chat I posted seems to end abruptly, that was cause I was at work, and they needed me for something.

[Jatsko]

@Anteroinen I don't know if you know, but we're trying to calm this argument down concerning the Layers, the Wiki and WIQ's theories for the moment...at least until Sub10 comes out (I'm trying to be peacekeeping moderator here)

I know you've been around here longer than me but I still feel like I should say that we're trying to calm things down..so forgive me for trying to stop this debate. Otherwise users will just try to have their own last words and the argument won't stop (I'm even refraining from posting any more of my opinions)

[Anteroinen]

I can see that is what you are trying to do, but I don't really see what we would gain by waiting. I am not super familiar with this debacle, but it doesn't seem like WiQ's claim about his right to say stuff about his theory room in the Wiki page – if it isn't supported by stuff outside of the bulk of his own story – doesn't seem to me like a problem that needs waiting. It is a pretty clear cut no. Story or theory, only Mateusz's own writing and creations can be considered a part of the Submachine canon, no matter how well a particular room might FIT a theory or a story.

I mean, there are two ways Mateusz makes the rooms: implying the theory is true or implying the theory is false. Sometimes it is just a nudge-nudge, wink-wink with the surroundings, but it is almost always there. Some connection. But this means nothing.

(Also, I am not going to claim superiority by age for you, I am not that arrogant, I honestly would never have believed anyone would actually call we a long time member of the community after my disappearance. I will shut up if you really want me to, but as this stands right now, I feel that is an non-ideal solution to a fairly straightforward problem.)

[WorldisQuiet5256]

Really?
Here okay, so who was "First" to the Finish Line?
While everyone else was sitting in the first 7 layers, I made it to the 8th layer first while everyone believe the lie.
More over Anteroinen, why is everyone not seeing the history staring them right in the face.
I feel I could literally stand in front of everyone in person who on this forum in real life all in one location, and none of you would see me.
You just see right through me. Nothing but a ghost.

.....great.

One last thing, I said it before, and I will say it again.
“What has happened before will happen again.”
- Ecclesiastes 1:9-18

9. What has happened before will happen again. What has been done before will be done again. There is nothing new in the whole world. 10. "Look," they say, "here is something new!" But no, it has all happened before, long before we were born. 11. No one remembers what has happened in the past, and no one in days to come will remember what happens between now and then.

I'm glad that is in my theory, cause, history has a tendency to repeat itself.And this is happening again. None of you believe me when I said their was an 8th Layer, now none of you believe me, even when its right there, written in chalk, on the wall, in my Room.

God has laid a miserable fate upon us.

And if you have no one to stand by you, you stand alone, even when everyone is against you.

[WorldisQuiet5256]

One last thing, if I ever saw a rig Courtroom, and trial, this surely counts as one.
All the Jury Member deice to see me incarcerated long before the trial began.

"Does it Feel Like a Trial?"

[Sublevel 114]

Thank you, Anteroinen.
You came and explained everything clear. :)


@World:

You think everyone except you followed the Mateusz's "lies"?..
I don't think so.

Everyone has their own point of view and set of theories and suggestions.
Everyone prefers to stand ALONE in that point.

Why?..

Well... as I see, you want we all join you now, right? Because you're "speaker of the truth"?
But what if we join you, for example, and tomorrow all your theories, your knowledge becomes LIE?
did you think about that?..
:)

------------
also, funny thing: all this years I did read, and I do read information only from Submachine games.
I STILL didn't read all Mateusz's post in Forum Posts page.
wow

that's why I still don't take off-game information as full-canon or full-serious.

[Anteroinen]

Really?
Here okay, so who was "First" to the Finish Line?
While everyone else was sitting in the first 7 layers, I made it to the 8th layer first while everyone believe the lie.

While it is true most of us didn't believe your theory, you weren't the only person out there who suggested it, although you might indeed have been the only one to condense their thoughts into an actual theory. To say that your theory was well supported is, sorry to say, not true. It hinged on a tiny hint, and it was in conflict with the creator's own words. Everything was saying that you were wrong. It isn't some world wide prejudice against you that what little peer review we have in this community didn't laud your work. We did that to other theories that were unbelievable before and after that.

Furthermore, none of that actually means anything now. Just because one of your theories came true in one aspect of it, doesn't mean that you will be always be right about everything. Further, this isn't even about theories or stories or validity thereof, this is strictly an issue about what a Wiki page about a location should contain.

It should not contain long elaborations about a particular theory, especially not so that it reads as favouring (or mocking) a certain theory. The WIQ locations have a clear story, yes, it is of an explorer who writes weird ramblings on walls, who by the looks of it has access to various karma based technologies, but that is neither here nor there. He was injured that is obvious and had been at the lab before too. I might argue he was one of the ones captured by the Edge protocols, that would explain some of the stuff going on at your location.

Your theories are also there. Their content doesn't constitute canon. Therefore, we cannot present the info in them as if it was canon. No matter how closely your theory fits the room or the canonical story of Submachine. The subnet is Mateusz' creation. The room is inspired by your theory. It is not an embodiment of you or your theory. You do have the right to get your theory wiped of those walls if you want, that's what Anonymous1 did a few times, but you do not govern the actual location or the story he spins into it. That is Mateusz's.

Even if we granted you that those theories were canon – which we shouldn't – their content doesn't even say anything conclusive about reaching the 8th layer. "Light everywhere" and "is this the 8th layer" might just as well be a hallucination of a dying man, we know he was injured after all. He is speculating, not stating things as fact in these writings.

So, what COULD the page have? It could have a succinct explanation of the wider context of your story in the trivia section, for instance. Because as long as Mateusz doesn't descend from the aether and declare your story absolute truth, we have no basis to say it is. While your wider context is interesting and worthy of a mention as such, no one should be obliged to believe it is fact, if we have no reason to think that. That is why it must be dealt with as a separate entity from what the short chalk ramblings say. The trivia point could read, for instance:

"According to the author of the theory, the person who wrote these notes gained access to the eighth layer and bluh bluh bluh."

Another thing is that there could probably be a page for the character that is outlined in this location, because the story is wide enough in comparison to say, king's master urbanist. But again, your wider context should remain separate from the story of the in-game character. Obviously your elaboration has its place on such a page, but only clearly separated from Mateusz's own work and clearly qualified as such.

EDIT: Or that is how I have used the Wiki. If the moderator disagrees, by all means, explain.

[Vortex]

well, what i think is, if some people are skeptic and don't believe something, and in the end it turns out they are wrong, that doesn't mean that what they did was bad. i think it is better to be cautious when you don't know if something is true or not, and go for the default option/remain agnostic about it, even if it's not the correct one and you have to change your mind when the truth is found.

for example, now we know that the Earth is round, but i don't think that ancient people did wrong in thinking that it was flat, because they did not have a reason to think it was round, nor had they discovered the means to find it.

so i think that in this case, it is better to wait until we find more about WiQ's room and what happened there, before adding it to the wiki's main page. if in the end he is right, then we can add the info to the corresponding pages, but until then it's better to be cautious and wait, i don't think anyone should be angry with that.

it's what happened with Layer 8, before Sub9 we didn't know what was the truth so we didn't add anything to the wiki. now that we now the truth, all the info is added. i think it's the correct procedure.

[Anteroinen]

so i think that in this case, it is better to wait until we find more about WiQ's room and what happened there, before adding it to the wiki's main page. if in the end he is right, then we can add the info to the corresponding pages, but until then it's better to be cautious and wait, i don't think anyone should be angry with that.

it's what happened with Layer 8, before Sub9 we didn't know what was the truth so we didn't add anything to the wiki. now that we now the truth, all the info is added. i think it's the correct procedure.

Precisely. Though I doubt there much else to find out about his room anymore. I mean his story is interesting and all, but I doubt it will become a game in its own right.